Posts by Cold Steel

28

607 BC vs 587 BC: Archaeoastronomy for Everyone

by Londo111 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amobor6pdbo.

even though this is an appendix to the main series, i thought id share this.

likely, it is not the most riveting video, but im hoping it can empower those interested in starting research into astronomical diaries like vat 4956. some might think its too complicated, but i believe such research is within everyones reach.

Cold Steel

Sigh...Jerusalem was destroyed in 586. Nebuchadnezzar laid siege against Jerusalem in January 588 B.C. And we know quite a bit about it: "For over a year, the Jews suffered the effects of the siege. As famine set in, morale among the Jews sank. Because of their weakened condition, plagues of one kind or another began to afflict the people (Jeremiah 14:12; 27:8, 13). Eventually, the food supply was depleted, and many resorted to cannibalism (Jeremiah 19:9; Lamentations 2:20; 4:10; Ezekiel 5:10). Finally, in July 587 B.C., the Babylonians broke through the walls and began pillaging and looting the city. Many Jews were slaughtered. The city, temple, and walls were razed to the ground. Those not killed were taken captive to Babylon, except for some of the peasantry. All that was left of Jerusalem was ash and rubble. Sadly, the prophet Jeremiah, who had witnessed the destruction, wrote, "How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!" (Lamentations 1:1)."

There is no question that the city was not destroyed in 607 B.C. Arguments to the contrary are just a waste of time and effort. If it had taken place that much earlier, everyone by now would know about it. This reminds me of people who think the moon landing never happened. I've seen entire documentaries trying to show that it never happened. But the one tiny fact that lasers can be reflected off retroreflectors left there by the Apollo astronauts is enough to refute all the hours of boring pseudofacts a documentary maker can muster.

15

JWs and Gog and MaGog...What Gives?

by Cold Steel in

so how does gog and magog pertain to jehovah's witnesses?

the latter-day battle is described in ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention jehovah's witnesses anywhere.

the prophet does write, however: .

Cold Steel

Thanks, Blondie. Isn’t it amazing that the Jehovah's Witnesses never use words like “probably” or “most likely.” I also never recall them saying “possibly.” It seems to be their propensity to make false assumptions and then build on them level after level and then have to apologize, revise or deny later that they were wrong.

Regarding Gog, we know that Ezekiel records Yahweh as saying, “ After many days...in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people.” This is obviously Judah, who in the last days will be gathered out of all nations. Isaiah writes: “ And [Yahweh] shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. ” (Isa. 11:12)

And Gog shall be brought “against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. ” (Ezek. 38:8)

By committing themselves too quickly, before the gathering of Judah, the Society got themselves plum stuck in the hooey because now they can’t get out of it, and they’re caught in teaching a monumental falsehood. And to later try to get out of it would be like stepping on a hand grenade! No amount of “new light” can make things right. To do that, it would mean accepting the prophecies regarding the gathering of Judah, and the Society is too far down the road to backtrack!

Paul, speaking of Gog/Beast/Antichrist writes: “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4) What temple is this? The temple that Ezekiel foretells and, in fact, gives the directions for building. John, too, speaks of it in Revelation 11:1-2): “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” It’s the court that is given unto Gog to occupy for three and a half years.

So the Jehovah's Witnesses must find themselves in these prophecies somehow, and this they cannot do. Gog is a threat to the Jews in Jerusalem, not to the Governing Body and the Society. (Unless they happen to be touring Israel at the time.)

Joel Richardson, author of The Islamic Antichrist (a great book, BTW) writes:

Actually, in order to estimate who Gog is, all one must really do is take a look at who the Antichrist is. The Antichrist, quite simply, is the devil incarnate—or at least the closet thing to it. Some passages of Scripture actually shift from speaking of Satan to speaking of the Antichrist seamlessly as if they are one and the same (for instance, see Isaiah 14). And as we have seen, Satan will share his worship with the Antichrist. Simply stated, Antichrist is the puppet that Satan will use to attack Jerusalem. And, at least in the Book of Revelation, Gog is also Satan’s puppet, and he will serve the very same purpose. In terms of both role and function, the Antichrist and the Gog of Revelation are essentially the same. Even as Satan will raise up a man to carry out his work in the days to come, so will Satan also raise up a man to carry out his final rebellion against God one more time at the end of the Millennium.”
Richardson, Joel, The Islamic Antichrist: The Shocking Truth about the Real Nature of the Beast, p. 84.

But how do we know that there are two battles of Gog and Magog. Richardson points to Ezekiel 38:17: “ Thus saith the Lord God ; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? ” Richardson concludes:

The question must be asked then—if Gog and Magog are spoken of by Israel’s former prophets prior to Ezekiel, then where are all of these references? We will be hard pressed to find any unless we do some serious stretching of the Scriptures. But if we take the position that Gog is the Antichrist, then it is very easy to find numerous passages about the Antichrist and his invading army throughout the prophets.

In the American South, people still revere the Confederate battle flag. In some future dispute, if feelings are running high, then the flag might be used by those sympathetic with the Southern cause. Eastern Europeans, for example, used the Confederate flag when the Berlin Wall fell to symbolize its rebellion against communism. In similar fashion, those rebelling against Yahweh at the end of the Millennium most likely will use the same name as the battle before the thousand year period.

The future Jewish temple and the outer courts, which will be occupied by Gog's armies.

14

Are people like Abraham, Isaiah or Jeremiah in heaven ?

by Durden in

i am discussing with my father about various subjects and this is one of them.. what arguments can i use to support this "doctrine" (so to say) ?.

i am looking for texts to support this (i knew quite a few, i just to learn something new).

thanks in advance.

Cold Steel

Mp: Both times [Abraham] let his sister be screwed by the king of Abelmalek(sp) & pharaoh.

I assume you mean figuratively. Abraham never compromised his wife's virtue in the stories.

19

Experience regarding Elders being spirit appointed

by Comatose in

i was told recently about a situation where an elder did not get recommended to serve upon moving to a new hall.

i think he left for a job.

but, something internal politics happened in the old hall and he was not recommended.

Cold Steel

Oubliette: It didn't take long to see that "Holy Spirit" had nothing to do with anything. It didn't take long to see that "Holy Spirit" had nothing to do with anything. ... One example involved a young man that had been disfellowshipped. He attended meetings for a while, met with us, told us exactly what we wanted/needed to hear and was reinstated. Even during the reinstatement meeting I had the distinct feeling that he was insincere and only telling us what he needed to say to get reinstated so that his family could have contact with him without getting themselves into trouble with the elders.

Well, in his defense, who could blame him for wanting the company of his family? Ritual shunning is a horrible doctrine and is completely opposed to Christianity.

Regarding the Holy Spirit, the premise of its role in a church would be based on the legitimacy of the church. The Jehovah's Witnesses still haven’t made a serious case for its legitimacy. Jesus inspected all the religious sects on the earth in 1919 and chose them. According to whom? And that’s the rub. There are no witnesses who can attest to the Lord’s selection, no angelic visits, no prophetic announcements, no declarations from Heaven, no priestly lines. So if one’s foundational claims are not correct, one’s claims to the gift of the Holy Spirit cannot have validity. Also, in the ancient church, members were first baptized by immersion and then given the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. This is the baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit. The Jehovah's Witnesses only baptize by water. Very few Christian churches purport to do the latter. Finally, even if the Society had the gift of the Holy Spirit, it wouldn’t mean it was infallible. The ancient apostles made it quite clear that everything wasn’t handed to them on a platter.

Wherever there’s an organization of people, there will be folks who seek power, gain and social status. Early on, as a Methodist and later, as a non-denominational church member, I noticed that most pastors, priests, reverends, whatever, love to get invited to members’ houses for dinner, but none that I ever saw ever reciprocated. My wife’s priest and his wife (Eastern Orthodox) have been over a few times, but we’ve never been invited to their home. And we go in various restaurants around town and see photos of him and his wife enjoying dinner with parish members, and I guarantee he’s never sprained his hand reaching for the check! So it’s not just the Jehovah's Witnesses. It’s all politics.

15

JWs and Gog and MaGog...What Gives?

by Cold Steel in

so how does gog and magog pertain to jehovah's witnesses?

the latter-day battle is described in ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention jehovah's witnesses anywhere.

the prophet does write, however: .

Cold Steel

Calebs: Okay, I'll bite. What was so terrifying about GOD'S KINGDOM OF A THOUSAND YEARS HAS APPROACHED? I think I read it years ago, but didn't find it particularly terrifying. But then, I wasn't 10!

I do, however, recall being terrified when I read part of a book by Albert Einstein at about that age. The offending passage was (I'll never forget it), "The sun is slowly, but surely, dying out." It was an old book at the time, so how many years did we have left, I wondered.

Is there a place where you can read out-of-print JW books like the one you mentioned?

15

JWs and Gog and MaGog...What Gives?

by Cold Steel in

so how does gog and magog pertain to jehovah's witnesses?

the latter-day battle is described in ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention jehovah's witnesses anywhere.

the prophet does write, however: .

Cold Steel

In some religions, there’s a debate whether Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog are the same. I believe they are the same, though there’s a very brief battle of the same name at the end of the Millennium. More than likely those who fight against God at that time will do so billing it at the continuation of the first battle and vowing a different outcome.

As one non-JW author puts it:

The Battle of Armageddon
Ezekiel knew that at a certain point following the return of the Jews to Palestine, and after they had built up the land and its cities, there would be a monumental military conflict which would precede the manifestation of the Messiah unto them.
Ezekiel said a great conquering host would come out of the north. He identified them as a massive military coalition of the people of Magog, Tubal and Meshech. These are three of the sons of Japheth, father of the Gentiles, whose descendants became the principal settlers of Europe and Asia. Their leader is identified by Ezekiel as “Gog,” who is the dictatorial commander general or “chief prince” over all these hosts. The Lord said this army would come over the land “like a cloud” and that it would be an unprovoked assault against defenseless cities. There would be savage fighting “throughout all my mountains,” the Lord said.
It is at this point that we digress long enough to examine the writings of Joel. His entire vision pertained to this period of terrible warfare and struggle just prior to the manifestation of the Messiah. We do not have any certain way of determining exactly when Joel wrote, but it is believed to have been long before this, probably in the eighth or ninth century B.C. The first two chapters of Joel have great significance for people living in an age of atomic warfare and mechanized cavalry.
He describes what the war against Judah will be like and the modern reader may well be astonished at some of the details. He says seeds will not grow in the ground, the land will be completely defoliated, “for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.” Joel describes a great war-like people who use fire as a weapon of desolation. He says that “there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it.... A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”
Joel tried to describe what he saw: “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.” But these were like no other horses he had ever seen. Notice this bold attempt to describe the strange mobile units which he saw: “Like the noise of chariots [not horses] on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble...they shall run like mighty men [once again the simile changes]; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; and they devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”
Joel tried to describe what he saw: “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.” But these were like no other horses he had ever seen. Notice this bold attempt to describe the strange mobile units which he saw: “Like the noise of chariots [not horses] on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble...they shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; and they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble.”
It sounds very much as though he were attempting to describe a modern armored division rumbling across a city with cannon and flame-throwers spreading destruction all around. Joel recommended that when the people of Judah see this great gentile juggernaut sweeping toward them they should go into fasting and prayer, for without God’s help they will never survive.
He cried, “Rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God.... Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: gather the people, sanctify the congregation...let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach.... Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the Lord will answer and say...I will remove far off from you the northern army.”

Ezekiel was also told that in this hour of distress the Lord would manifest his power. The Lord said divine judgments would issue forth for a considerable period of time to keep his people from being immediately conquered.

The apostle John states that the source of many of these divine judgments would will be two prophets raised up to the Jews who will help them greatly in standing up this enemy. (See Revelation 11) And most Christians believe this is how the final great battle will go down. Taking his prophecy, which seemingly speaks of modern warfare, there’s no way any of this would be applicable to the Jehovah's Witnesses of the early 21st Century.

Or can it?

In all the articles I've read in the Watchtower and Awake! magazines, not one addresses these biblical prophecies as interpreted literally. They all speak of Armageddon being a final, monumental battle between GOOD and EVIL. And they're very indistinct about the identities of Gog and Magog.

15

JWs and Gog and MaGog...What Gives?

by Cold Steel in

so how does gog and magog pertain to jehovah's witnesses?

the latter-day battle is described in ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention jehovah's witnesses anywhere.

the prophet does write, however: .

Cold Steel

So how does Gog and Magog pertain to Jehovah's Witnesses?

The latter-day battle is described in Ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention Jehovah's Witnesses anywhere. The prophet does write, however:

And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. Thus saith the Lord God ; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.

So this great, vast army will come up against the Jehovah's Witnesses as a cloud to cover the land of Brooklyn, New York? And when Gog shall come up against the land of Brooklyn, saith Jehovah, that my fury shall come up in my face"?

The Watchtower states:

Still, Jehovah will not destroy at random. Some humans will be saved. "You went forth for the salvation of your people, to save your anointed one," says Habakkuk 3:13. Yes, Jehovah will save his faithful anointed servants. The destruction of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, will then be complete. Today, however, the nations are trying to wipe out pure worship. Soon, Jehovah's servants will be attacked by the forces of Gog of Magog. Watchtower 2000 Feb 1 p.22

It should be a sight to see. How, do they suppose, will they come to be so significant to someone like Gog? Will a world tyrant wake up one morning and say, "Let's go make war against...lemme see...Mormons, no...Seventh Day Adventists, no...Baptists? Tempting, but no. Hey, how about the Jehovah's Witnesses? Yeah...that's the ticket!" Then one day they will sweep out of the North, meaning Canada, if they're going to be targeting Brooklyn, and thee seige will be on. Now it makes sense that a major force would attack Israel. One, Israel has powerful enemies, and two, the scriptures say it will be Israel.

Can someone explain this, seriously?

14

After Armageddon...Then What?

by Cold Steel in

i've read the sarcastic short stories about it, but seriously, i'm stumped.. after armageddon, what then?

yeah, i know they'll bury our bodies or cart them off to be burned, but then the earth will become paradise and then what??

seriously, what do they (the leaders) do to remain relevant?.

Cold Steel

I wonder if there will be publishing? Will there be any need for Bibles and Watchtowers? Will there be articles like "Armageddon: Why It Took So Long" or "Governing Body Announces 'Our Mistake...Birthdays Okay All Along!'" There might even be an article entitled: "Chistmas Changed to December 26! No Longer a 'Pagan' Holiday!"

14

After Armageddon...Then What?

by Cold Steel in

i've read the sarcastic short stories about it, but seriously, i'm stumped.. after armageddon, what then?

yeah, i know they'll bury our bodies or cart them off to be burned, but then the earth will become paradise and then what??

seriously, what do they (the leaders) do to remain relevant?.

Cold Steel

Fernando: Many religious people say that Armageddon is a battle. But early in the 19th century, Bible scholar Adam Clarke wrote: “How ridiculous have been the conjectures of men relative to this point! Within the last twenty years this battle has been fought at various places, according to our purblind seers and self-inspired prophets! At one time it was Austerlitz, at another Moscow, at another Leipsic, and now Waterloo! And thus they have gone on, and will go on, confounding and being confounded.”

Armageddon is not Ragnorak, despite what the Society thinks. And Adam Clarke was a product of his times, remember. The Jews had not gathered back to the lands of its inheritance, nor did the prospects of them building their temple seem to be encouraging. Prophecy states that Armageddon will be the culminating battle in which the "Beast" (or "Gog" or the "Antichrist") is destroyed with his armies and in which Jesus would return, convert the Jews and bring about the promised Millennium. Clarke, and of course, the Bible students, could not see the prophecy materializing literally because Palestine still had not realized its prophetic destiny.

All that has changed now. Israel is a nation, it has many powerful enemies who have promised holy war if the Dome of the Rock and the mosque, which occupy the place where the Jews will build their temple. So the JWs are clearly behind the times. But since they've gone too far down the road, they really can't change horses in midstream.

If, for the sake of argument, we say the JWs are correct about Armageddon being the classic battle between good and evil, I just wondered if they had any "plans" once Armageddon happened.

Also, according to the GB, is it an event that can happen at any time? And once it does, what will be, according to them, the new lines of authority? Will the GB be in charge until further notice??

5

If Luke 16:19-31 is fictional then would that not apply to Matthew 24:45-47 as well

by I_love_Jeff in

how do the jehovah's witnesses determine which parable is to be taken literally, such as matthew 24:45-47, and which one, for example luke 16:19-31, is an allegory?.

are both parables not open to interpretation in the eyes of the jehovah's witnesses?

are they using the eisegetical approach to scripture?.

Cold Steel

Luke 16:19-31:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew 24:45-47

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

I can't speak for the WTBTS, but scriptural exegesis normally favors those who are doing the interpreting. In Luke, most would argue that Jesus never gave a parable that wasn't, in many ways, true to life. In the allegory that Luke gives, a man who had thought of nothing but himself on earth found himself entreating the righeous Lazarus, who had died and now sat in the bosom of Abraham. It's a compelling story about a man who failed to keep his first estate and was forced to beg for mercy from a man whom he had held in disdain during life.

Then in Matthew, the Lord is speaking of his own coming in the latter days. Those who are prepared for his coming will be those he rewards. Thus it is, he will reward his faithful and wise servant who he finds doing his will. A few things here:

the servant will be of the Lord's authorized household
he will be the ruler over his household
he will feed and care for the rest of the staff
that servant will be exalted to being a ruler over all things

The GB cannot be this servant because, like the first parable, not a prophecy of future events. It's a teaching aid.

The "faithful and wise" servant is not self-appointed or self-acclaimed, but is of the Lord's authorized household and the Lord must recognize his servants, for it is his household.

Because it is not a prophecy, the parable explains the rewards of those authorized servants who prepare themselvs for the Lord's coming by serving others; for the greatest man in the Lord's house is the greatest servant. In the time before the Lord's arrival, that servant who is busy serving others will be exalted by the Lord at his coming. In other words, the Lord's servants who prepare for their Lord's coming and are not found sleeping shall be rewarded. It's not "one" servant, but many; for it applies to all of the Lord's servants who await his coming.